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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Yannick,<br>
I agree with what you are writing completely in all aspects. Let
me change the point of view.<br>
<br>
There have been similar discussions on the other two communities
about the same issue. So I am not trying to add more people to the
corpora-list discussion, but to let other people take notice of
it. I really have to thank you for providing a good summary as an
entry point. Also this link by JFS is interesting:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.jfsowa.com/talks/goal3.pdf">http://www.jfsowa.com/talks/goal3.pdf</a><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Your whole post seems to boil down to a
claim that only RDF-encoded data should count as ontology. This
seems to be a bit near-sighted to me, as LemonRDF’s encoding of
WordNet is just that, an encoding which is very convenient but
which adds nothing to the existing semantics.</blockquote>
<br>
In the RDF world, we believe in URI senses. I agree, that RDF does
not add anything to the content of the original data. However, I
would argue, that it restructures the resource and makes the
modeling explicit, transparent and re-usable. Also discoverability
of data is increased. RDF is a Framework to Describe Resources
such as WordNet. At the end of the day, it should be easier to
answer the question, which part of WordNet is on ontology (and can
be used as such) and what part is merely a dictionary. <br>
<br>
I believe, that essentially my community is trying to understand,
what is currently going on and then model this in OWL, which is
similar to UML or ER-diagrams. Once you have it in OWL, you can
mix and merge and transform it into more efficient structures like
SQL (As John mentioned, Cyc is also providing these mappings and
it is easy to go down from rich knowledge). The quest therefore is
to encode human-knowledge into the data on a meta-level, i.e.
describing the data/resources not the world. <br>
<br>
We are in dire need of expert input, however. Hence my attempt to
cross-post. <br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
Sebastian<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 08.08.2014 09:52, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yversley@gmail.com">yversley@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:491ccdcd6fb54abc9f74962aec9e53dd@gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<div>Dear Sebastian,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>let me start out by saying that including that I’m not sure
if broadening an already diffuse discussion by adding more
people to it is helpful in the sense of achieving a better
signal-to-noise ratio. Corpora-List is (in)famous for
occasionally having discussions between people with very
different background assumptions (e.g. Ramesh’s insistence
that language is best seen as behaviour vs. the point that
language is a tool to get meanings across). This can be both
good and bad, and lots of people who are only interested in
factual information did or will hit the “Mute thread" button
(or moral equivalent) in the process.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Your whole post seems to boil down to a claim that only
RDF-encoded data should count as ontology. This seems to be a
bit near-sighted to me, as LemonRDF’s encoding of WordNet is
just that, an encoding which is very convenient but which adds
nothing to the existing semantics.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I completely agree that using a powerful database (be it
RDF or SQL or anything else) is better than using the 90s
infrastructure that was once designed for Wordnet, and that
linking datasets together is much easier with a common format
thst reduces the m:n problem to an 1:n problem.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We already established earlier that WordNet is a
combination between a dictionary and an ontological component,
which is exactly why it’s more useful for NLP than the
ontologies that were part of the original conception of the
Semantic Web. Fortunately for us though, people woke up to
that idea and resources such as DBPedia now also include
dictionary entries that mediate between natural-language
strings and the concepts of the respective ontology.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Saying that some people think that “the ontology is already
in the text" is unnecessarily putting up a strawman. No one
claimed this, and you’d do better by understanding the actual
arguments put forward - for example, that in the absence of a
central authority, as with marriage or taxonomies in Biology,
ontologies are conceptualizations that are intersubjective
rather than purely objective. E.g. Kafka may be a German
writer in one ontology and a Czech writer in another, yet
either of these ontologies would be useful and intuitively
plausible. (This creates a tension/incompatibility between the
perspective that ontologies are logical things and that you
should be able to reason with them, and the view that you
should be able to freely combine ontologies on related
things.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Your discussion of layers is absolutely orthogonal to that
- modeling text, annotations, metadata, and ontology in one
database is surely convenient if you can make it work in a
sense that's practically relevant but it doesn’t add anything
to the discussion we’re having here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div>Yannick</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="padding-top: 5px; border-top-color: rgb(229, 229,
229); border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid;">
<div><font style="line-height: 15pt; letter-spacing: 0.02em;
font-family: "Calibri", "Segoe UI",
"Meiryo", "Microsoft YaHei UI",
"Microsoft JhengHei UI", "Malgun
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face=" 'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft YaHei
UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic',
'sans-serif'"><b>Von:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hellmann@informatik.uni-leipzig.de"
target="_parent">Sebastian Hellmann</a><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag, 8. August 2014 09:35<br>
<b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sowa@bestweb.net" target="_parent">John F
Sowa</a>, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:corpora@uib.no" target="_parent">corpora</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:open-linguistics@lists.okfn.org"
target="_parent">A list for those interested in open
data in linguistics.</a>, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nlp2rdf@lists.informatik.uni-leipzig.de"
target="_parent">nlp2rdf</a></font></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br>
(I included some more lists to ping them, discussion started
here: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://mailman.uib.no/public/corpora/2014-August/020939.html"
target="_parent">http://mailman.uib.no/public/corpora/2014-August/020939.html</a>)<br>
<br>
I see that there are many viewpoints on this issue in this
thread.<br>
So let me add my personal biased view.<br>
<br>
In the broadest sense, we start to create an ontology by
stating facts:<br>
<br>
married (a, b) . <br>
<br>
Imho we have an ontology, solely for the reason, that we
start to relate a to b with "married" . Even if there is not
an explicit ontology defining "married", it is still used in
an "ontological" way, just not explicit. There are other
aspects missing, which have been discussed throughout the
literature (i.e. the fact that it must be "shared" by
Gruber), but in the broadest sense, it qualifies. <br>
<br>
Regarding language technology and this discussion, I would
say that we should be careful not to mix levels. This is
done by lexical-semantic resources, i.e. WordNet, but we
could separate it again. <br>
<br>
In my view, we have these different layers:<br>
<br>
1. the content, i.e. the characters (html, plaintext), e.g
in unicode.<br>
2. the container of the content, i.e. document or tweet<br>
3. annotations on the content<br>
4. metadata on the container, e.g. the tweeter or author for
context<br>
5. collection of content (with or without annotations) i.e.
the corpora<br>
6. ontologies and data describing language, i.e. lexica,
dictionaries, terminologies, etc. such as WordNet<br>
7. factual databases inluding their taxonomies, i.e. the
DBpedia knowledge graph <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://dbpedia.org"
target="_parent">http://dbpedia.org</a><br>
<br>
(@John: I hope you are noticing, that I am trying to be keep
all of it as underspecified as possible)<br>
<br>
Then in addition, there are ontologies on a meta-level that
try to capture all seven layers. Some examples (more below):
NIF, lemon, ITS, NERD [1]<br>
which we are trying to combine in the <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://nlp2rdf.org" target="_parent">http://nlp2rdf.org</a>
and <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lider-project.eu" target="_parent">http://lider-project.eu</a>
<br>
<br>
We can model WordNet using the lemon ontology: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://datahub.io/dataset/lemonwordnet"
target="_parent">http://datahub.io/dataset/lemonwordnet</a><br>
However for certain purposes, it makes sense to transform
WordNet to become a taxonomy as YAGO is doing:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.mpi-inf.mpg.de/departments/databases-and-information-systems/research/yago-naga/yago/"
target="_parent">https://www.mpi-inf.mpg.de/departments/databases-and-information-systems/research/yago-naga/yago/</a><br>
<br>
I am not fixed upon any of the definitions I gave above, as
I am aware that you can and should! transform one in the
other (with some effort, e.g. corpora to dictionary, fact
extraction, language generation).<br>
<br>
If we are talking about extracting ontologies from text,
there might be philosophical people who might want to argue
that the ontology is already in the text. Discussion can be
endless, if you take the wrong linguistic turn.<br>
<br>
If we are focusing on engineering of information machines,
then things are much clearer. <br>
<br>
All the best, <br>
Sebastian<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[1] related to the different layers:<br>
1. NIF: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://persistence.uni-leipzig.org/nlp2rdf/ontologies/nif-core#"
target="_parent">http://persistence.uni-leipzig.org/nlp2rdf/ontologies/nif-core#</a><br>
2. (there is a gap here, Dublin Core or Foaf are not enough
imho)<br>
3 a) MARL: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.gi2mo.org/marl/0.1/ns.html"
target="_parent">http://www.gi2mo.org/marl/0.1/ns.html</a><br>
b) ITS: Docu: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/" target="_parent">http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/</a>
, RDF: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf#" target="_parent">http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf#</a><br>
c) OLIA: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://purl.org/olia/"
target="_parent">http://purl.org/olia/</a><br>
4. a) Dublin Core: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/"
target="_parent">http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/</a><br>
b) Prov-O: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/" target="_parent">http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/</a><br>
5. also NIF: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://persistence.uni-leipzig.org/nlp2rdf/ontologies/nif-core#"
target="_parent">http://persistence.uni-leipzig.org/nlp2rdf/ontologies/nif-core#</a><br>
6. lemon: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lemon-model.net/" target="_parent">http://lemon-model.net/</a><br>
7. a) DCAT and DataId: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://wiki.dbpedia.org/coop/DataIDUnit"
target="_parent">http://wiki.dbpedia.org/coop/DataIDUnit</a><br>
b) NERD: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://nerd.eurecom.fr/ontology" target="_parent">http://nerd.eurecom.fr/ontology</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 08.08.2014 06:11, John F Sowa wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"
cite="mid:53E44DE4.4090105@bestweb.net">On 8/7/2014 10:57
PM, Ken Litkowski wrote: <br>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">It
would seem to me that our goal should be a classification
<br>
of all existing things (not to exclude the narrower
types). <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, but note the slides I suggested in my first note: <br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.jfsowa.com/talks/kdptut.pdf"
target="_parent">http://www.jfsowa.com/talks/kdptut.pdf</a>
<br>
<br>
Slides 7 to 9: Cyc project. 30 years of work (since 1984).
<br>
After the first 25 years, 100 million dollars and 1000
person-years <br>
of work (one person-millennium!), 600,000 concepts, defined
by <br>
5,000,000 axioms, organized in 6,000 microtheories -- and
counting. <br>
<br>
Slide 10: 2300 years of universal ontology schemes -- and
counting. <br>
<br>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">The
Brandeis Shallow Ontology attempts to do this, and
incidentally <br>
is being used to characterize arguments of verbs in
Patrick Hanks <br>
corpus pattern analysis, i.e., in the imperfect world of
language. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I strongly believe in shallow, underspecified ontologies --
especially <br>
when they're supplemented with lots of lexical information
about verbs <br>
and their characteristic patterns. <br>
<br>
But I also believe that the key to having an open-ended
variety of <br>
specialized ontologies is to make the computers do what
people do: <br>
extend their ontologies automatically by reading books. <br>
<br>
Lenat made the mistake of assuming that you need to
hand-code <br>
a huge amount of knowledge before a system can start to read
<br>
by itself. But that's wrong. You need to design a system
that <br>
can automatically augment its ontology every step of the
way. <br>
<br>
John <br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<small>Sebastian Hellmann<br>
AKSW/NLP2RDF research group<br>
Insitute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) and DBpedia
Association<br>
Events: <br>
* <b>Sept. 1-5, 2014</b> Conference Week in Leipzig,
including <br>
** <b>Sept 2nd</b>, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mlode2014.nlp2rdf.org/" target="_parent">MLODE
2014</a> <br>
** <b>Sept 3rd</b>, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Leipzig2014"
target="_parent">2nd DBpedia Community Meeting</a><br>
** <b>Sept 4th-5th</b>, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://semantics.cc/" target="_parent">SEMANTiCS
(formerly i-SEMANTICS) </a><br>
Venha para a Alemanha como PhD: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/csf"
target="_parent">http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/csf</a><br>
Projects: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://dbpedia.org" target="_parent">http://dbpedia.org</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://nlp2rdf.org"
target="_parent">http://nlp2rdf.org</a>, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://linguistics.okfn.org" target="_parent">http://linguistics.okfn.org</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt"
target="_parent">https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt</a><br>
Homepage: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann"
target="_parent">http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann</a><br>
Research Group: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://aksw.org" target="_parent">http://aksw.org</a><br>
Thesis:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tinyurl.com/sh-thesis-summary"
target="_parent">http://tinyurl.com/sh-thesis-summary</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tinyurl.com/sh-thesis" target="_parent">http://tinyurl.com/sh-thesis</a><br>
</small></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<small>Sebastian Hellmann<br>
AKSW/NLP2RDF research group<br>
Insitute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) and DBpedia Association<br>
Events: <br>
* <b>Sept. 1-5, 2014</b> Conference Week in Leipzig, including
<br>
** <b>Sept 2nd</b>, <a href="http://mlode2014.nlp2rdf.org/">MLODE
2014</a> <br>
** <b>Sept 3rd</b>, <a
href="http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Leipzig2014">2nd
DBpedia Community Meeting</a><br>
** <b>Sept 4th-5th</b>, <a href="http://semantics.cc/">SEMANTiCS
(formerly i-SEMANTICS) </a><br>
Venha para a Alemanha como PhD: <a
href="http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/csf">http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/csf</a><br>
Projects: <a href="http://dbpedia.org">http://dbpedia.org</a>,
<a href="http://nlp2rdf.org">http://nlp2rdf.org</a>, <a
href="http://linguistics.okfn.org">http://linguistics.okfn.org</a>,
<a href="http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt">https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt</a><br>
Homepage: <a href="http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann">http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann</a><br>
Research Group: <a href="http://aksw.org">http://aksw.org</a><br>
Thesis:<br>
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/sh-thesis-summary">http://tinyurl.com/sh-thesis-summary</a><br>
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/sh-thesis">http://tinyurl.com/sh-thesis</a><br>
</small></div>
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